Category: Let's talk
First of all, I would like to point out a couple of things:
This is not meant as an attack on specific users,
I deliberately put the topic under the Let's talk section,<
This is not meant to thrash Christianity,
and
I'm writing this topic as a person who believes in God myself.
Now to the actual post:
Ever since I started my own business in 1996, I have worked with many kinds of people, from different walks of life.
Every time, and I mean, every time, when I met a client who during our introduction mentioned that he/she was a Christian, there arose problems between us sooner or later.
Almost 90% of the time, the trouble happened when it was time for the client to pay.
In many instances, the "christian" client, really hammered on the fact that he/she doesn't have money, but that God would provide, or that he/she would pay me later, (something that almost never happens), and so on and so forth.
Earlier this year, a dispute between me and a "christian" client, ended up in the small claims court, simply because the client hadn't worked with backing tracks ever before he came to me, and despite efforts from my side to assist him as best I could.
I want to make the following statement:
The most damage I ever got as a provider of services to the public, were from so-called Christians.
Once again, sorry if you feel that I'm hammering Christians in general, that's not my intention.
My Question is though:
If you are a Christian, does that give you the right to trample on other people, simply because you think you're better than others?
Does it give you the right to thrust your beliefs down other people's throats?
Okay, I admit to making mistakes along the way, I sometimes sware, I get angry, I never said for one moment that I'm wonderful and flawless.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
This is a very interesting post. Before I reply I should point out that I am an atheist but that I am quite comfortable with religious people, provided that they do not try to convert me.
I'm not sure whether this problem is confined purely to Christians, or whether it is the same for religious people as a whole. However, this 'god will provide' scenario I find incredible. In my book, if I wish to buy a product or service, I have to ensure that I have the wherewithall to pay for it. If I don't than that product/service is out of my league until I have the money.
I believe that some religious people use their religion to hide behind and as an excuse. I recently met a Christian who has turned out to be a liar beyond all comprehension. I feel that my morals as an atheist far outweigh those of that Christian.
Some of these religious people need to remember that the moral code of their religion should extend outside of their worship time.
Again, this is not an attack on any specific person or group. Its just a pity that more people don't live by the examples of their religion, or beliefs.
Absolutely not, but sadly I think that so called Christians do think that they're better than everyone else because they "have god" on their side. I have a "friend" who is a Christian to the extreme. when I moved in with my husband who was then not my husband, she told me that I should prey to God for forgiveness for having had sex before marriage. When she found a boyfriend, she broke up with him after a while because he "came between me and god". And she truely believes that God has a purpose with everyone, that everything happens because God wants it to, and that those who have not accepted God into their hearts will ultimately go to hell. Now personally I think that if heaven is full of people like that, then that sounds like my idea of hell, lol.
I think that as time goes by, I'm actually less and less convinced that there is a God. If we look at all the atrosities in the world, the terrorist attacks on the UK and the US and in other countries, these were all conducted in the name of religion. Look at the ethnic cleansing that has happened in the Sudan, Ruanda, in parts of bosnia/croatia, again, all in the name of religion. Look at the suecide bombings in Iraq, all in the name of religion. Look at the aids crisis in Africa, and see what happened, the catholic church went in and told the people not to use condoms because that wasn't what God intended, more religion. Look at the situation in the catholic church where paedofiles have been allowed to sexually abuse young children and have been allowed to get away with it. I just fail to see how a god who is apparently compassionate would allow all this to happen in the world.
As a practicing Christian, I find it offensive the incongruity between what "Christians" do and say. For all the reasons raised here, I'm deeply concerned about the ethics of some who call themselves such. I think we all need to be careful, however, not to use "all" refering to any group of people. That implies everyone in every group is the same. Ahafan, I don't know about you, but any time someone calls themselves a "Christian" I tend to bring my guard up a bit until I get to know them, and can observe them to see if their behavior is consistent with their statements/self-imposed labels. Granted, as humans, we're not consistent 100 percent of the time, but I look for it nevertheless.
Lou
Please don't think that I'm being "Holier than thou" by that last post. I loose patience (ask my wife). I swear, and I'm not always consistent. I try to live my faith by example. I don't think that "being a Christian" exempts anybody from responsibility for paying their debts, and meeting their obligations.
Lou
It's an interesting discussion and I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. I think that the people who claim themselves to be Christian concentrate on the message of ultimate forgiveness, which I never understood in the first place. Christianity teaches that if you regret and repeant it doesn' matter what you've done, you'll be forgiven. So doesn't that allow a person to do whatever he/she wants and then just feel sorry afterwards? And I do not like the mind control that the Christian churches often try to preach or assert over their members. Read the bible to so and so many people a day or you'll go to hell, give money to this course or you'll go to hell etc. I want to be a good person because I see the benefit of being nice and I want to genuinely help because I makes me happy and it's the right thing, I don't want to do it out of fear of eternal damnation and all that. Of course I often fail but I think it's better to fail with good intentions than to appear nice and but doing it out of fear of the consequences of not following some religious code.
I'm a practicing Christian, although I don't go to church much. I've found at least one church/group of people over here I can relate to, non-excessive, not trying to shove their ethics down your throat, actually willing to discuss big questions taht concern religion. I may not always agree but I've had a few conversations with current members and I've actually enjoyed them. But sadly I have to agree with the original post. I see a lot of hypocracy and holier-than-thou attitude which turns me away from joining any group whose identity is religious.
I think most of the so-called "religious" wars simply use religion as an excuse and the actual causes for the suicide bombings and invations etc are much more practical/economic (middle east is struggle for natural resources) but just the fact reliigion can be used to brain wash people to the point where they blow thsmeselves up makes me question the validity of the religion in the first place.
Some interesting points raised here, thank you so far.
I just want to say that I try to live according to God's will, even though I fail a lot of times.
I believe that I can honour my God more through trying to live a good life rather than to scream out that I'm a Christian, so that everyone and everything must know it.
Also, a lot of my friends, if not the most of them, are atheists.
Some of you may think "Ah, what a wonderful opportunity to preach the Word of God to these people".
Somehow I disagree.
Way too often people (in this part of the world anyway), think that they can abuse their so-called Christianity for all the wrong reasons.
Something I want to share with you, is that, when I was in England in 1997, some "christian" accompanied me here.
When we were there, all the things that could go wrong with us, went wrong.
After a couple of days, that "christian" approached me and said that God gave her word that I must have committed some sin of some sort where money is involved, this apparently were the reason for all the things that happened to us!
Thinking back on it now, it actually makes me laugh.
Afterwards a friend remarked that a lot of crap has been preached, "in the name of the Lord".
By making this statement, this friend of mine really pointed out to me how quickly and easily some people will abuse their religion!
So, yeah, maybe if someone announces his/her christianity for all to hear, I must be on my guard.
I must admit that, nowadays when someone tells me out of the blue that he/she is a Christian, I must bite my lip not to ask them what they want.
Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with being a Christian or not. I think people who will mention in their first introduction who Christian in their first introduction aren't really proclaiming their faith at all. Rather, they are laying the ground-work for handing off responsibility--they are *preparing* to refuse to pay the bill later on. It doesn't have anything to with religion, but with building excuses. They could use anything: they could have chosen a sick mother whose hospital bills they have to pay, or the fact that they've had a hard life and are just now getting their sh*t together, but they choose Christianity because it makes them look virtuous. It's disgusting--it cheapens the experience of those who really are Christians and try to live accordingly, and it's just generally a cowardly and scummy thing to do, hiding behind a religion so you don't have to pay your bills. I don't think any "real" Christian would ever attempt that, as they would see their religion as an enrichment to their life, not a quick excuse.
now confess to your sins quinten and repent! Or the wrath of god shall befall you or ... however it goes, lol.
Seriously though, I find it interesting that someone who claimed to be a christian could say that it was *you* who must have been being made to pay for some sin or other, as if she, as a Christian was incapable of sin.
As for the bible bashers, isn't there a story in the bible somewhere about two people who went to prey. One was a peasant woman, and the other was a distinguished person. The distinguished person went in, put loads of money in the pot, went to the alter and exclaimed to all that he should be seen to be preying to God. But the peasant woman slipped in, put all she had, which was very little, in the pot, and bowed her head in prayer but did not approach the alter. When seeing this, the distinguished gentlemen scorned at her, saying that she was not worthy of Jesus' love, but Jesus said that she was more worthy because she preyed from her heart, and gave from her heart, whereas the other man had given and preyed to be recognized, he was selfish. I'm not sure if that's exactly how it goes but that's the general gist. Personally I think that preaching on the streets/knocking on peoples' doors and handing out leaflets in the name of religion should be illegal, or if not I should be allowed to go into churches and proclaim that God doesn't exist.
just to add, if genuine Christians don't want to be associated with bible bashers, then the genuine Christian groups need to start condemning those that preach on street corners, otherwise all christians will continue to be viewed as bible bashers.
I don't think that this gives anyone the right to trample on others or force their believes on others. That's what I meant in another board topic: Some people just exagerate.
Okay.... Here's me again stirring up the pot.
I've recently become closer to God than ever before. As a Christian, I am firmly convinced that my mission on earth is to have a relationship with God, not so that I can be holier-than-thou (Whoever is greatest among you will be least, and whoever is least shall be greatest), but to simply live my life to serve Him.
Now, this "God will provide" thing: yes, God can and does provide, but when it comes to a service that you're paying someone for He expects us to pay for the work that is done. It's not like money will fall from the sky magically. Now, I get nervous sometimes and talk to God about things that I worry about (rent, food, bills), and trust that he will provide, and He has... through my parents' support, through a tax refund last month, and on it goes. Now, I can't walk into a car dealership and choose a car, telling the salesperson that God will provide the finances for the car, so he/she must give it to me now.
okay, I think that's enough. LOL
Crazy Kate
I have to agree with you Crazy Musician, I also talk to God about normal daily issues, but never, never has money fallen from the sky, or has someone's heart melted when I wanted to buy something from them, resulting in me getting what I want or need for free ... no, God does provide, but in my case, it's through more work (so I can pay the bills and live), good health, some talents, the list goes on.
Maybe, I don't know, I must stop saying I'm a Christian, but rather that I believe in, and belong to God, and try to live a good life.
Living a good life in my view, isn't necessarily only a "christian's" mission, but something that any person from any belief could try to do, since it's really so enriching, don't you think?
The problem with Christians is that they're humans like the rest of us. Sometimes I think people hold Christians up to higher standards probably because some of your more vocal/radical Christians seem to want to be held up to a higher standard. Guess it's just a case of image versus reality and people who think they can live solely on the basis of their image. Solution? Don't have an image, so you have nothing to hide behind.
I think you could say the same thing about any religion be it Moslem or Christian. Those that use religion as a crutch are the ones that proclaim there beliefs when they approach you. as Jesus said when you pray don't stand out on the street corner but make it a private thing. In every following there is the silent majority, I wish the silent majority in the Muslims would stand up and take care of the extremists among them the same way I think the Christians should take care of the extremeists in there camp.
saddly neither will probably happen in my life time!
yes, Jesus did say not to stand out on a street corner and pray, but He also did say to go and make disciples of all the nations. He was also not condoning the practice of pride, "Lord, thank You that I am not like this tax collector". Rather he was condoning the man whose attitude toward God was reverent, and whose prayer was a simple prayer of forgiveness borne out of his realization of his sin and God's ability to forgive him of it.
Good discussion. I do not like to preach to people that don't want to hear it unless someone is interested in chiristianity, if they don't bring it up, I don't talk about it. What frustrates me is these so called christians who do things that are unchristian like and think they are a christian, they even go to church. Also, I think the god will provide is a statement I hear a lot, yes he does, but you have to work for it.
Troy
Ooh, I like this thread. All the good stuff has already been said, so I'll throw another generalisation into the mix. If people tell me, in our first meeting, that they are a christian, it turns me off entirely. I'd like to think this is because, unless our first conversation happens to be about religion for some reason, it just doesn't need to be there, in a chat with a stranger. I don't think faith is a badge to be worn, to be the first thing we use to define ourselves to others. And on the other hand, I've had some bad experiences with people I don't know coming up to me and announcing their christianity right off the bat. It's never yet led to a good thing. So, like Q, my reaction tends to be wondering what they want and how to get out of there. I don't think that's fair of me, but it's what I've learned so far, and I think humans have learned responses for a reason.
Yeah, what Resonant says. It doesn't necessarily turn me off if somebody identifies their faith to me right off the bat, but I start wondering what their real motivation is or if they're trying to sell me something or start trying to get me to become part of their faith. As Resonant says, why bring it up when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? It reminds me of an odd little incident. I was in this little shopping center in my home town looking for Radio Shack. This woman approaches me and tells me her name, her age, which was fifty-something, and that she was "a Christian lady." I was thinking: "Lady, I couldn't care less if your name was Raven and you were a 25-year-old pagan as long as you can point me in the right direction for the Radio Shack." LOL!
I was on a train once, and, as is generally tipicle with trains here, it was late. And the woman next to me started chatting away until she said "I'm a Christian". I hastily said "sorry, I'm not into all that", to which she replied "you don't have to be into it, God is everywhere, and I just know that he sent me here to meet you today, because I can just tell that you are in such desperate need of being with God." at which point I began to think she was a total fruitcake.
As matter of interest, how many people that actually "preach" the word manage to convert anyone? And I know there are some on these boards, because I've read and contributed to such topics as "how do you talk to someone about God who won't listen?"
I agree with Crazy Musician on that one. I am very close to god as well. And God pvovides, but the way he does it ... some people just get it so wrong.
The ones that get me are the healing types that meet you on the bus and tell you how gods going to heal you. I act all interested and then when they get done I tell them I'm really not interested that being blind is about the best thing that could happen to you.
LOL
Now, most of my friends are Christians. Do they talk about God all the time? No... we talk about other things. Do they live out their faith? Absolutely.
There was one time that I came home for a week, and was only able to meet up with these two friends for dinner one night. I had some faith questions to ask them (they are very knowledgeable). So they take their Bible out of their car and we go into the restaurant and chat for a bit and then talk about faith stuff. Now, yes, we brought a Bible into a restaurant and wanted to discuss it, but to be honest, I didn't see anything wrong with it. A waitress even asked us what we were talking about, which I told her. Which is completely different from us trying to "convert" her.
CM
Unfortunately, the stereotype a lot of folks have about Christians, and I've fallen into this trap as well, is of a person who is so much into their faith that they separate themselves totally from anything secular and can't really connect with the outside world. They're very clean-cut in their looks and manners, never swear or have any vices or adictions, and avoid all media and entertainment unless it is specifically Christian in nature. Now I bet there are Christians like that, but my guess is it's a very small subset of them who are like that.
Yes there are a few christians who are very clean, but I'm not like that, what i mean is yes I'm clean meaning I clean up and where nice clothes, but there are times I sware, but I don't feel guilty and go to god about it when it happens.
Troy
Hi,
I agree... to completely segregate yourself from the world because you're a Christian is kinda nuts, as that's not the example Jesus gve us. Now, on the other hand, I am careful about the words that come out of my mouth, and the things that I read and listen to..but just ebcause a book doesn't have "Christian" on the label doesn't mean I will discard it, but I am a little more cauteous because of the content. Garbage in, garbage out, as the saying goes.
And I also don't know what to thhink about Christians who go to church and believe in god but hurt others so much in public that they cry. Oh and Yogi I agree about these healing-types. They must be annoying.
for me, spirituality is probably the better word for me. There is a big difference. I don't read the bible, I don't go to church, I don't get in to the hole Jesus did this stuff. I just pray, turn stuff over to god when it gets to much and go on. That is enough for me! I think that people lead much better by example rather than telling me what a book says, if you have to tell me what someone else wrote about something rather than by personal experience I'm really not interested. I've met a few people over a life time that lived by there beliefs rather than proclaimed them. For me that's a lot more powerful.
I am a Christian orthodox but like some others said i will only talk about it if the subject is appropriate etc. If you read my profile you will know that i didn't say anything about christianity because i know people wouldn't want to know. And i don't care what my friends believe. I can tell you that my girlfriend is agnostic but we never tried to convert each other or we never argued about religion. We just keep what we believe to ourselves.
And i don't like people who talk about their religion all the time. I know i should concentrate to correct my own mistakes instead of saying if somebody is a good christian or not.
I hope it makes sence. It's difficult thinking in Greek and writting in English.
Nikos
Sorry it's me again but i forgot to answer the original question.
Anchent Greek people used to believe that there were 12 gods and godes and they used to say the following frase. "Syn Athina kai heira kini". This means don't just wait from the godest Athina to help you. Move your hand as well. Which means that god will help if you make an effort as well. And i think it's exactly the same with christianity. Nothing will come on its own if don't work for it.
Nikos
Yogi, with me it's similar. Only that I go to church but it is a church which doesn'T c are if you are catholic or evangelic or anything. It's a free church with modern songs. That's all. I hardly ever read the bible. Does that make me a sinner?
ah but all too often it's the modern day churches that have the weird and wacky outlook. upbeat songs end up in people leaping about speaking in tongues and all that and ... to strange for my liking.
and ... took a bible to a restaurant? sorry but if I saw that I would be of the opinion you were extreme christians.
It is true that our stereotype of the Christian person may be quite removed from the average Christian and negatively so. We only notice those whoare the most extreme and, in many people's view, most out of touch with "the real world", only those would have the ordacity to distirbute brochures and claim that Jesus could heal our blindness if we join them and pray.
I think Christianity is a very good religion to live your life by, I use it as guidance (or should, I really am not that much into reading the bible etc) and it's interesting to see what the religion has to say about how to lead your life. I think it's something that I would take into consideration, but I can't follow it blindly, I'm too independent of a thinker and if the action recommended makes no sense to me I would have a hard time following it.
The biggest problem, like I think I alrady said, with any religion is the assumption that in order to be "saved" you have to follow its rules to the letter and give up your independence and stop thinking and that people get way too touchy when you question the belief, if the beliefe is strong enough it should withstand sscrutiny and discussion and it should be encouraged, not made into a taboo.
It sounds to me that quite a few of you are saying that one can be a Christian in terms of accepting the recommondations Christianity has for one's behavior around other people, but reject or at least not participate the rest of it. I think that is a totally legitimate option, and what makes one what I call a moral or a cultural Christian. Even though I don't believe in God at all, I'm still raised as a Christian, and still believe that the Christian moral code is a really good one, and I follow it because it contributes to general happiness. So in a sense you can totally call yourself a Christian even if you never open a bible, or pray, or even have much faith in God. I think that is one of the best assets of any religion: if it lets you chose the parts you want, take it as far as you want to take it, and still be welcome in the community.
Okay, SugarBaby, call me a fanatic. But would you think me a news junkie by reading a newspaper in a restaurant?
CM, I haev to agree. Discussing your faith in a public place among friends is no different than a study goup at school from all appearances. To me, you were having a quiet conversation, trying to get answers to questions. The only reason we know about it is because you chose to share it with us. The only reason the waitress probably asked is because she saw all of you, and your body language was such that it encouraged her to ask questions. Now, had you left your table and gone to your neighbors table proclaiming yourselves to be christians and/or asking "are you saved" Do you know Jesus?" etc., that would have been a different matter, and to me, been intrusive.